2017-01-30 Fade of the Roc While wondering about the question of a bunch of Rocs vs. the Zone-Buzzz-Comet combination, and about the lifecycle concept of Innova, I came to the question of what disc to use for a tunnel shot. Actually, my question was rather: How can I use a Roc for a tunnel shot, if the Roc is my only midrange? A web inquiry revealed that Rocs appear not to necessarily fade at the end. This underlines that a single Roc is no solution, but only a bunch of Rocs, in various states of wear, is. Following is the most helpful comment I found: For me, what makes the Roc such a great disc is because as it ages, it covers multiple roles in my bag without having to use different molds (which each have dif- ferent rims and different feels to them). You can throw a Roc the same way every time, and the wear on the disc will determine the flight path. I usually car- ry 2-3 of them in varying stages of wear. New ones will hold a stable/hyzer line even with the most powerful throws. Seasoned ones will fly straight as an arrow without any fade, even through slight headwinds. Beat-in ones will flip and turn without fade. [0] (This goes well with my former article about not talking about the number of different molds in a bag but about the number of discs that cover different roles, i.e. pieces minus backups.) Another good comment was this: Try a fresh DX Roc. You will see that a beat in over- stable mid flies differently from an off the shelf neu- tral or US mid. It is to mids what Teebirds are to drivers. They start out straight with fade, grade into dead nuts straight, then slightly turning, to flippy. From what I understand, they tend to lose fade, then gain turn: complex stuff. I just think it is fun to take the same disc through its life cycle. [1] These comments underline this line of thinking: Use Rocs (similar for Teebirds) and cycle them through to cover the spectrum from overstable to stable to understable. This covers the midrange spectrum. Thus, you'll have fresh discs with nice fade for dis- tance control, and others without fade for dead straight shots, and old ones that roll. In consequence one must ask if there is a sense in having a sin- gle Roc together with other mids in the bag. I'd rather see it now as: Either take Rocs or take other mids. That's two dif- ferent philosophies. The lifecycle way, which you'll go with rather fast wearing plastic, or the static way, which you'll go with premium plastic. My own bag (much of a beginner's experimentation compilation) in- cludes as midranges a DX Roc, a Z-FLX Buzzz and an ESP Comet. (The choice of plastics was for no real reason, I just wanted to get to know all these different plastics.) Now I'm wondering if I need to decide for either the Roc way or the Discraft way, at least if I want to cut my bag down to a minimum. One option might be to slowly push the Discraft discs out of the bag as the Roc starts to season and I put new Rocs in on the overstable side. Thus going from newRoc-Buzzz-Comet to newRoc- olderRoc-Comet to newRoc-olderRoc-oldestRoc, reaching a stable cycle. The other option would be replacing the DX Roc with a premium plastic Zone and going the static way. I really would like to have a mixed-manufacturer bag, but at the same time, the lifecycle concept is appealing. Not only does it reduce the variables within the midrange discs, but it also makes it easier to increase and decrease the number of midranges I car- ry. Back to the tunnel shot. One option is a Buzzz or Comet on a slight hyzer angle to get it flip up to flat. The other option is a seasoned Roc, thrown in the same way. Comet or beat up DX Roc are my go to, dead-straight mids. [2] And: Buzz straight down the middle on a slight hyzer so it flips up, rides right and finishes straight. [3] This doesn't change if you increase the speed. Here's another helpful comment (which included more good advice about tunnel shots): The biggest technical thing I do on tunnel shots? Change absolutely nothing. The more I try to modify my technique for a tunnel shot, the more I get in my own head about messing it up. I'll throw either an FD or beat McPro Roc3 just how I normally would. I find I have the most success that way and I don't overthink it. [4] FD (appears to be a faster Buzzz) or a Roc3 (a faster Roc) -- again the same pattern: Take either a native straight flyer or a beat-in overstable disc. Eventually, it comes down to the need of a disc that goes straight, be it one that does so out of the box, then take that in premium plastic to keep its stability longer, or be it a seasoned version of an overstable disc, then use a more baseline plastic for a faster lifecycle. A week ago, I thought about getting a Zone and an FD, both in premium plastic, as next discs when I'll come to the feeling that I know my current discs well enough. Today, I'm rather thinking about getting another Roc when the current one is beat in a bit) and a DX Teebird (to supplement my Champ Teebird). The only down- side I see in this is moving closer to an Innova-dominated bag. ... and later this year, when it comes to overstable windfighting drivers, will I choose a Felon or a Predator or a Firebird? On the other hand, there might be more harmony in a bag where all discs follow the same philosophy ... and copying the best players was never the wrong thing. All of this still is only thinking and planning. My practice remains centered around my driving technique, for which these considerations don't matter. (I still like to throw the Aero a lot when practicing form.) This reasoning is more my way of understanding things. Today, my main takeaway is the fact that seasoned Rocs don't fade. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/3bsm97/whats_the_deal_with_the_roc/csp8cio/?st=iyjwdntg&sh=e30794e6 [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/3bsm97/whats_the_deal_with_the_roc/cspj1b3/?st=iyjwnnge&sh=cc533384 [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/4suhyp/tunnel_shotdead_straight_mid/d5c86hz/?st=iyjwp5nc&sh=3ac2d2a2 [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/2zfxla/257_tunnel_shot_what_do_you_throw/cpikhy2/?st=iyjwi0k8&sh=d2de704b [4] https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/2yx7mt/suggestions_on_a_good_tunnel_shot_fairway_driver/cpdsmbw/?st=iyjwkujd&sh=a6da7c36 http://marmaro.de/discgolf/ markus schnalke